What effect does rejection and abuse have on a developing child?
"Probably, if I had lately left a good home and kind parents, this would have been the hour when I should most keenly have regretted the separation: that wind would then have dampened my heart; this obscure chaos would have disturbed my peace: as it was, I derived from both a strange excitement, and reckless and feverish, I wished the wind to howl more wildly, the gloom to deepened to darkness, and the confusion to rise to clamor (pg. 54-55)"
I chose this quote because I believe it reveals a lot of insight into how children who face abuse frame the circumstances that surround them. While kids who come from a less violent background often face situations of comfort and happiness with ease, Jane has a hard time adapting to this setting because of its contrast with the conditions of her youth.
How does one reconcile duty with desire, passion with reason?
"It is in vain to say human beings ought to be satisfied with tranquility: they must have action; and they will make it if they cannot find it. Millions are condemned to a stiller doom than mine and millions are in silent revolt against their lot." -(P. 111, speaker: Jane Eyre)
I chose this quote because I think it encompasses precisely what my question is asking for. Throughout this book we have seen many perspectives on how one deals with the sometimes opposite pulls of duty and desire. Jane Eyre, in particular, has one of the most dominant stances on this point (in my opinion). She does what her heart tells her too regardless of her "duty" and regardless of "reason". This quote expresses just that. She feels that people shouldn't just be satisfied with what they have, if they want more. And if they want more they should take action and go out and get it! Jane sees that there are so many out there who are worse off then she is, but all they do is sit there and complain, and do nothing about it ("silent revolt"). It seems as though Jane Eyre feels that if you desire something, or have an immense passion for something then don't let your duty or your reasoning get in the way of it. There are many excellent quotes in this book when it comes to how one reconciles duty with desire, passion with reason (quotes from Helen and Mr. Rochester, for example, who have different approaches on the matter), but this one is just one of the many that stood out to me. :)
What effect does rejection and abuse have on a developing child?
"I felt physically weak and broken down: but my worst ailment was an unutterable wretchedness of mind: a wretchedness which kept drawing from me silent tears; no sooner had I wiped on salt drop from my cheek than another followed."
I chose this quote because it is the perfect description of what rejection and abuse can do to a child. It basically answers the question directly. Jane was going through so much at this point, yet the worst part to her that stood out the most was what it was doing to her mentally.
What effect does rejection and abuse have on a developing child?
"Ere long, I had reason to congratulate myself on the course of wholesome discipline to which I had thus forced my feelings to submit: thanks to it, I was able to meet subsequent occurences with a decent calm; which had they found me unprepared, I should probably have been unequal to maintain, even externally." (Page 164)
I feel as though this quote suggests that as a result of abuse and rejection one could then inherently submit themselves to a state of being reserved or better yet prevent themselves from being subjected to vulnerability. In the case of Jane, I have noticed that she avoids ever professing her true wants which may suggest she feels inferior or perhaps not entitled to express herself. Given her childhood abuse it is no wonder how she may fear others influence on her or how they may view her and as a result will adjust her appearance to suit one that is in control no matter how much her head may be spinning.
"All of John Reed's violent tyrannies, all his sisters' proud indifference, all his mother's aversion, all the servants' partiality, turned up in my disturbed mind like a dark deposit in a turbid well. Why was I always suffering, always brow-beaten, always accused, forever condemned? Why could I never please? Why was it useless to try to win any one's favour?" (Page 14, Chapter 2)
I chose this quote because I felt it reflected Jane Eyre's questioning of why she was dubbed a bad child. Her actions never were sinful to the scale they were portrayed by the Reeds; however, being a child at the time, she believed so. At Gateshead, it was evident that she was a “discord”; further implying her internal solitude. This actually allowed Jane to express herself in other matters, such as art (painting of landscapes, particularly). Although she is now a quiet Governess as compared with her peer, Adele, and an obedient employee to Mr. Rochester at Thornfield, Jane was able to say at one point that “for my part, I liked it better” [p. 120-regarding life at Thornfield]. Therefore, her transitions from Gateshead to Lowood to Thornfield Hall display that suffering and change have been beneficial for Jane. She has improved her own life with the continuous movement from one place to another. Although she cannot truly commit to one place as “home” because of the trials and tribulations she has encountered, Jane’s experiences have allowed her to grow as a character and prepare her for future challenges.
**I'm not sure if I've shared this quote before but it's my favorite:
"I knew he would soon strike, and while dreading the blow, I mused on the disgusting, and ugly appearance of him who would presently deal it."
This shows that suffering and adversity are intrinsic parts of life and are thus inextricably linked to happiness and joy. For example, although she knew that pain was coming, she found something that was enjoyable about her ordeal and focused on that. It is as if the inevitability of adversity allowed her to appreciate the good in life. This answers the question while using the theme of dualism by showing that life is life, the good comes with the bad and visa-versa. Thus, all pain, adversity, and suffering is not always bad because it is at the precipice that we can come to truly enjoy life. Also reminds me of a bible verse "but joy cometh in the morning" or something like that lol
"How does one reconcile duty with desire, passion with reason?"
One of my favorite qutoes thus far in relation to this question comes from page 154, after Jane saves Rochester's life. He has just released her hand and she retires to bed.
"I regained my couch, but never thought of sleep. Till morning dawned I was tossed on a buoyant but unquiet sea, where billows of trouble rolled under surges of joy. I thought sometimes I saw beyond its wild waters a shore, sweet as the hills of Beulah; and now and then a freshening gale, wakened my hope, bore my spirit, triumphantly towards the bourne: but I could not reach it, even in fancy,-- a counteracting breeze blew off land, and continually drov me back. Sense would resist delirium: judgement would warn passion."
This quote perfectly responds to the question. Jane is aware of her own feelings for Rochester, and while he elates her and fills her with joy, she is well aware that such a love cannot be expressed. Jane knows her place in the household: she is simply the master's daughter's governess, and telling Rochester the truth would only complicate things. Thus Jane would rather keep her feelings hidden.... for now, at least.
My question is, "Is all adversity, pain, and suffering bad?"
The quote I'd like to share is from Mr Rochester: "But I tell you---and you may mark my words---you will come some day to a craggy pass of the channel where the whole of life's stream will be broken up into whirl and tumult, foam and noise: either you will be dashed to atoms on crag points, or lifted up and borne on by some master wave into a calmer current---as I am now."
This isn't the most directly-related quote to my question, but it is my favorite one, and I do think it applies. Although the "whirl and tumult" Rochester describes sounds more like random chaos than pure suffering, I think it can stand for any big tribulation in your life.
In my life, the heaviest trials I have faced have been times of deep emotional suffering. When someone goes through an ordeal of great suffering, it has the potential to destroy them, as Rochester says: if we let the pain get in under our skin, it can drive us to psychosis or even to suicide, where we will literally be "dashed to atoms". If we can bear our burden and make it through the adversity, however, we instead emerge into a "calmer current," where daily hardships are much easier to deal with, in contrast to the great pain and suffering from before. This shows that all adversity, pain, and suffering is certainly not bad: once we experience the negative spectrum of emotion, it is easier to deal with minor negatives, and also to appreciate the simple pleasures many people take for granted.
Ultimately, everything is a learning experience; I chose to share this quote because I think it helps illustrate the important message that, if we treat our suffering like a learning experience rather than a destructive force, we will be able to be "lifted up and borne on by some master wave into a calmer current".
What effect does rejection and abuse have on a developing child?
"Too often she betrayed this, by the undue vent she gave to a spiteful antipathy she conceveived against little Adele: pushing her away with some contumelious epithet if she happened to approach her; sometimes ordering her from the room, and always treating her with coldness and acrimony."
I choose this quote for it was the most recent passage that I have read that seemed as their was cruelity to Adele. This neglet that she recieves makes Adele strive for attention and that love from on of her elders. Which we see on Page 269 when Adele beggs a pleads to join Jane and Edward in the new carraige to Millcote, and spark conversation.
My question is "What effect does rejection and abuse have on a developing child?" In response to my question my favorite quote is one said by Mr.Rochester to Jane when he shares with her a time of pain. Mr. Rochester says, "I see at intervals the glance of a curious sort of bird through the close-set bars of a cage: a vivid, restless, resolute captive is there; were it free, it would soar cloud high." This quote is relevant in terms of my question because it displays Jane as someone who has never been exposed to any form of freedom whether it'd be emotional,physical or mental; she has always been forced to endure neglect and abuse which consequently stifled her from developing into the individual that is capable of "soaring cloud-high". It depicts Jane precisely by implying that the abuse she has been forced to endure has caged her and prevented her from breaking free and revealing that she is capable of more than what she has been conditioned to believe. Not only does this quote seem to reveal Jane's current person as a whole but it also, in my opinion,foreshadows Jane's future freedom after she removes the shackles caused by the rejection and abuse from her family and finally reaches a state in which she developes self-esteem as well as self-respect.
"Teachers and pupils may look coldly at you for a day or two, but friendly feelings are concealed in their hearts; and if you perservere in doing well, these feelings will ere long appear so much more evidently for their temporary suppression."
This quote was chosen by me because I believe that it expresses the essence of pain, adversity, and suffering. We tend to try and avoid anything that may cause pain. However we don't that within pain and suffering there are good or "friendly" thingts concealed within them and if we just endure the bad the good will burst out of them and even more so because it was held back for that period of time. For example, after the typhus disease devasted the school, though it was bad and many died due to it, afterwards the conditions were changed and the school overall improved and was ran much more efficiently than prior. Also, jane even mentioned how the serving were of a greater portion also. It seems that everytime Jane mentions something bad happening somethins good or positive follows.
Can an immoral action be justified by a moral objective?
"If people were always kind and obedient to those who are cruel and unjust, the wicked people would have it their own way; they would never be afraid, and so never alter, but grow worse and worse. When struck at without reason, we should strike again very hard."
I chose this quote because I felt it epitomized the conflicting matter of my question. Basically I feel it expresses the side of the question that does agree that an immoral action can have a moral objective. For as the quote said, if one does not strike back, and hard, then one will be trampled over by those who continually strike. It is a kind of a balance in the world that what is given must be taken. I also think that the quotes meaning touches on the motif balanced. It is like in our Socratic discussion the other day. This quote justifies doing so by stating the clear and necessary balance. For instance the physical appearance being blessed and having no soul or having a strong soul and being hideous. Basically, I felt it not only answered the question, but led to higher comprehension of the novel as a whole.
"How should people deal with injustice- accept in silence or fight back?"
"How can she bear it so quietly- so firmly?" Pages 51-52
I chose this quote because it shows the two different philosophies. Helen is the subject of the of the quote and Jane is the speaker. Helen's philosophy of endurance is unknown to Jane. Jane obviously does not share the same outlook. This contrast between the two characters highlights the ideologies of each. This also makes a statement on how fighting back symbolizes weakness. Jane fights back because she doesn't have the endurance nor confidence of Helen, signifying Jane as a weaker individual. With this quote, it seems as if Bronte answers my question with the answer of silence.
How do one's values influence the decisions an individual makes?
Pg 58: "Read the New Testament, and observe what Christ sas, and how He acts;make His word your rule, and His conduct your example" - Helen Burns
I chose this quote because it explicitly answers my question. One’s values have a great amount of influence on the decisions an individual makes. Helen Burns has a strong belief in God and believes in the divinity of Jesus’ actions. Therefore, she makes her decisions based on Christ’s actions. She will not take the route that contradicts her values. Helen can be characterized as the modern day person who constantly asks “what would Jesus do?” and makes her decisions based on the answer to that question. This characterization can be seen in the patience that Helen displays at Lowood and her ability to turn all bad criticism into positive ones.
#1: How should people deal with injustice - accept in silence or fight back?
"When we are struck at without a reason, we should strike back again very hard"
First of all, I really like this quote! :) I think that it portrays a very strong minded and smart girl who, to answer the question, would choose fighting back when dealing with injustice. The quotes I copied down in the beginning of the book seemed more likely to answer with "accept in silence" but as the novel progresses, so does Jane. While she may not necessarily fight back, the above quote illustrates that she does believe we should fight back when dealing with injustice.
Bronte answers this question in the book through Jane Eyre herself. Although she's not a fan of the hypocritical, elitist likes of Brocklehurst and Mrs. Reed, their teachings do effect/shape her values as proven by the contrast between the Jane before Lowood and the Jane afterwards. Before Lowood, Jane was often disrespectful, when punished, she adhered to her passions and lashed out against what she felt was unjust treatment, whether this retaliation included threatening to starve herself or yelling at Mrs. Reed. However, after Lowood, Jane seems to have developed a sense that going with her passions are not always the right thing to do. Thus her reluctance to not only talk freely to Mr. Rodchester when they first meet, but her initial inability to express her love for him as well as initial deference to Ms. Ingram (regarding Rodchester's attention, and when she claims that if it weren't for her motives and disposition, Ms. Ingram's social position would warrant admiration) prove that restraint and other social norms have become ingrained in her value system.
That being said, values play a large part in one's decisions. In fact they are often the determining factor, whether those values have to do with self-preservation/betterment, helping others, or some other idea priveldeged by societal rules. This is so because they form the basis of evaluation. For example, Jane is slow to openly express her feelings for Rodchester because her values not only tell her that it is wrong, but as the basis for decision, they tell her that she is not "worthy" especially in comparison to someone of such high esteem and beauty as Ms. Ingram. Thus her values lead her to initially make the decision to bury her feelings in an attempt at suffocating them so they no longer plague her thoughts.
When reading Jane Eyre we are exposed to different values, or viewpoints, from each character. Just like how Helen and Jane contrast in my question ("How does one reconcile duty for desire, passion for reason?"), they also contrast in their opinion on if one should fight back or keep silent when encountering injustice. Helen chooses to stay silent. When punished, she obliges. When talked down upon, she doesn't lash out. However, Jane always speaks her mind and does what she feels is right when injustice occurs. For example, when Mrs. Reed scorns her for fights with John that she did not start, Jane would stick up for herself and fight back. Therefore, although I feel that both Travis and Sarah made very good points in their posts, I feel as though there isn't one clear answer. Some characters in the book "accept in silence" , while others "fight back." I think this is exactly what Bronte is trying to express, these different outlooks and how they may change or evolve throughout the course of the novel.
Dues to Jane's lack of expressing herself throughout her life, it is hard to, except under extrenuating circumstances, such as with her cousin John in the beginning of the novel. Jane has always let her passion out weigh her reason. From when she hit John in retaliation, yelled at Ms. Reed for how she treated her to telling Helen how one ought to respond when being treated with injustice. Jane has been the one to fight back even if there was no reward in it. her retaliation to John brought severe consequences and yet not too long after she yells at Ms. Reed, with the expectations of having consequences. She let her passion override her reason.
Yet, I agree with Rachel's response that Jane puts aside her desire for her duty. Although I do believe that Jane could still be a governness for MR. Rochester and be his wife at the same time. It would be simply like having a wife that works, only she works for you.
In response to Travis' post and Melvin's response:
Perfect quote Travis, because it also relates to my question and further buttresses Melvin’s response. The quote serves as a perfect example of an individual being forced to make a decision in a scenario; to accept in silence or fight back. At the end of the day, as Melvin said, it is one’s values that will serve as a determining factor. Jane said those words at a time when she valued self-expression and that want for freedom. Being a victim of abuse and so many constraints, Jane developed utter resentment to the philosophy of “accepting in silence” instead of fighting back. However, at Lowood, Jane was able to involve herself with someone who exemplified the “accept in silence” philosophy and Jane slowly changed her values which affected her ways. Throughout her stay at Lowood, Jane slowly moved to the more peaceful side of the spectrum instead of fighting back. As Melvin stated, the result of Jane’s transformation can be seen at Thornfield. Jane observes Miss Ingram intensely and is able to strip off the facetious airs that Miss Ingram puts on. Jane sees that Miss Ingram makes comments that lack substance and only has a reputation going for her. Yet, Jane always holds her composure and never calls Miss Ingram out when Miss Ingram makes silly and condescending comments about Jane and the servants. Instead of fighting back, Jane simply remains in her corner and accepts in silence. I am not a gambler, but I am more than willing to bet that the pre-Lowood Jane would lash out at Miss Ingram and expose Miss Ingram. However, the new Jane has a different set of values guiding her decisions.
"How should people deal with injustice- accept in silence or fight back?"
I chose this quote, with Jane puzzled at Grace's Possible crime and Rochester's inaction -
“He had almost as much as declared his conviction of her criminality last night: what mysterious cause withheld him from accusing her? Why had he enjoined me, too, to secrecy? It was strange: a bold, vindictive, and haughty gentleman seemed somehow in the power of one of the meanest of his dependants; so much in her power, that even when she lifted her hand against his life, he dared not openly charge her with the attempt, much less punish her for it.” - Jane ch. 16
I chose this quote because it displays what kind of attitude Jane has regarding justice and injustice. As seen here, as soon as Jane realizes Rochester is not doing anything about the Grace Poole situation, she immediately jumps to the conclusion that Poole must have some sort of hold or grasp over him which prevents him from relating her crimes to others. This shows that Jane possibly believes(perhaps foolishly) that everyone has an intrinsic desire to do justice and if they do not, then they must have some sort of oppressive force preventing them from doing justice.
I agree completely that Jane is being reserved because she "reasons" that she has a specific place in a household and that because of this she should not express her feelings. However, I find that her "reason" is something created by her own horrendous experience and troubled childhood. So, in regards to the question, one would be able to reconcile reason with passion, however Jane cannot because her judgement is already flawed, thus making it impossible to be reasonable and passionate at the same time.
I found the quote you shared quite interesting. It seems to me to be reflective of parts of the "Romantic" mindset. A few thoughts come to my head when contemplating this viewpoint of Jane's:
She says Rochester has "almost as much as declared his conviction of her criminality"; this, to me, sounds like an incredibly shaky, unsure conviction, foreshadowing the fact that Grace Poole is not exactly the "criminal" Jane believes her to be. I think it naive of Jane to be so adamant about Grace Poole's need for punishment, considering how little she actually knows about the crime or the accused. This in turn reminded me of a Romantic condemnation of modern (i.e. industrial) society; the real issue/crime is deeper than what is ostensibly true. (Problem exists in human nature, perhaps, not industrial society? Think Wordsworth's disillusionment at the failure of the French revolution.)
Jane also, as indicated by this quote, seems incredulous that someone with the power to deal justice would refrain from doing so, as you (German) noted. This communicates to me a very idealistic or naive view of the world, namely that "wrongs" need to be made "right" by justice. The truth is that this is simply not the natural order of things. No lightning bolt will strike you down if you do something "wrong". I see the idea of justice as a construct of the human mind, and although it can be a comforting concept, it seems quite naive to me to believe that "justice" is the natural consequence for convicted wrongdoers. It also implies, in a more indirect way, a kind of moral rigidity that does not take into account the subjective nature of right and wrong. This reminds me again of the Romantics, who, while espousing a return to nature, neglect to think of the hardships such as famine and intense weather that plagued the human race before technological progress. There is a kind of trade-off of advantages and disadvantages with each step towards "progress", and I always find it a bit narrow-minded when someone condems any idea (modern society, injustice, death, etc) as being absolutely or universally bad.
Jane's assumption that Rochester needs a "cause" to refrain from dealing justice accentuates this somewhat naive outlook; she can't imagine that someone might not be inclined to give just punishments. As I stated above, I don't think anything can be condemned as absolutely bad or negative; on the same note, I don't believe that anything (i.e. justice) can be considered absolutely GOOD or RIGHT, either. Exactly what "justice" means will differ from person to person, but I think the idea of punishing those who commit injustices is counterproductive. Punishment doesn't do anything except tell the perpetrator that they are "wrong"; it doesn't help them figure out the "right" way to go. Maybe this didn't seem apparent in the Victorian era, but I do think Jane's expectations for justice reveal something about her mindset: no matter how sobered or cautious she is, she is still at the base romantic, idealistic, and passionate, perhaps because of lack of personal experience, or perhaps as a compensation or consequence of her painful upbringing. Either way, to me, this attitude seems an imbalance that prevents Jane from being at peace with her world; she seems to live in either a romantic fantasy land or a miserable, dreary world, but never simply "reality" or "life". Just as Jane was always reading fairy tales as a child, looking for an escape, I believe she is still trying to "escape" even at Thornfield---escape into her romantic dreamworld, and thus miss the fantastic reality she is actually living in. Tying that back to the Romantics, I believe they, in a way, kept themselves from being contented with reality by idealizing a romantic world.
So, Jane's mindset (at least relative to justice) seems to reflect the more romantic themes of the novel. Now maybe I'm just reading way too deeply into this, but that is all the stuff that quote stirred up in my brain. So there you have it.
In response to Tharadjyne's post. I find the quote encompassing the question perfectly. To elaborate I think through that suffering and embarrassment Jane attempts to use that anguish as her drive to prove Mr.Brocklehurst wrong about her persona. So with that her suffering creates a positive effect rather than a negative which was his intentions.
I feel that your quote is relevant to the question; I also agree with where you are coming from regarding Jane’s introversion. To expand, I feel as if she is versatile; Jane does adapt to her surroundings quite easily. However, it is clear to me that she does not forget her past, and therefore reflects them in other instances other than expressing her feelings. Jane’s landscapes are an example of this; they depict her deepest sentiments, whether at Gateshead, Lowood (when she truly started this art) and Thornfield. A tortured developed child will seek alternatives to express any emotion; the young are not devoid of this. I feel that it has helped her become strong in every aspect; she has bettered her own life by changing her environments.
While I agree with the statement that Jane loves and admires passion, I don’t think that she acts upon her urges or desires. After eight years the only act for her own happiness that Jane takes is attempting to find a job outside of Lowood, and even when she does she still continually desires for some change to the lifestyle she creates there (“I could not help it: the restlessness was in my nature; it agitated me to pain sometimes”). While she expresses emotion for Rochester, she doesn’t act on it until he sanctions it and not before then, and she accepts the inevitability of his marriage with Miss Ingram until he decides to change it. I think there is something to be said for a distinction between what Jane did and what she actually desired.
How do one's values influence the decisions an individual makes?
"But I feel this, Helen: I must dislike those who, whatever I do to please them, persist in disliking me; I must resist those who punish me unjustly. It is as natural as that I should love those who show me affection, or submit to punishment when I feel it is deserved."
I chose this quote because it shows why Jane is so deviant when it comes to Mrs Reed. She realizes that Mrs. Reed will dislike her no matter what, so she will continue to dislike her unless she becomes treated otherwise, which we see is not so. It also shows how Jane fell in love with Rochester. She does not find him attractive, yet she happens to fall in love with him simply on the basis that he treats her kindly.
I agree with German's idea that Jane believes that people have an opposing force that keeps them from speaking up for justice. But I also think that when one fights for justice and it can not be obtained, it has the same end effect as if they kept quiet, even though they are trying to be heard. For example, when John Reed abuses Jane, and she tries to speak up, Mrs. Reed does not believe that it is John's fault and assumes that it is Jane that is being deviant. Even though Jane is fighting to get John in trouble, it has the same end effect if she had not said anything.
My question is: How does one reconcile duty with desire, passion with reason?
My (fav.) quote: "I felt as the road shortened before me: so glad I stopped once to ask myself what joy meant: and to remind reason that it was not to my home i was going or to a permanent resting-place, or to a place where fond friends looked out for me and waited my arrival" Page 247
I chose this quote because I believe it answers my question perfectly. Jane Eyre finally accustoms herself to a new life where she feels accepted, loved and belonged. But then once again her "reason" and thoughts come in play making her feel incompetent and unworthy of having a friendship or to be able to love. She does not allow herself to enjoy life and have the freedom to feel secured and acknowledged, and it portrays how she battles "duty" with "desire" and "passion" with "reason".
In response to Keturah's post:
I agree with that fact that her quote responds clearly to her question, but I would like to add something. I feel that KK's questions links to mine. Jane Eyre's "abuse" not just damaged her physical appearance but her inner-self also. And as a consequence she lost all the hope that she had left. That's why she believes she does not deserve anything good int his world but suffering. (This might be pretty obvious but I just wanted to point it out)
I absolutely love that you used Helen as an example for your question because in my opinion, she is the prime example of how values influence choices. Helen's religious values keep her from choosing to express a lot of her emotions in scenes like when she is getting whipped. Although every character takes some action at some point in the book that can answer this question, I feel that Helen's choices based on her beliefs are constant throughout her time in the novel; her values are so influential to the extent that she even quotes them as you have shown in the quote that you chose. I definately agree with you that our values do have an influence over our actions, and that Helen's life can be seen as based on the question "what would jesus do?"
I understand where you're coming from. But I have to disagree.(Sorry!)well...to an extent. lol. I don't think Jane necessarily disregards her duty for passion when there is a pull between the two. If this were the case then how do you explain her suppressing her feelings toward Mr. Rochester especially when she loved him so zealously. During her time at Thornfield she continuously used reason (the fact that she was poor, a simple governess, and "plain")to talk herself out of expressing her feeling outwardly. I think it more that Jane stops herself from igniting passion and exploring the inner depths of her desires because she believes that it is her duty to be miss "plain Jane," and uses reason that she couldn't be be any other way but herself. Or that she makes it her passion (or maybe it is her desire to)remain dutiful and reasonable in being "plain chain" all circumstances even if it means reconciling things dearest to her, even her love for Rochester.
So I'm behind in getting started on this assignment so here goes my quote to question #4 HOW DOES ONE RECONCILE DUTY WITH DESIRE, PASSION WITH REASON? found on page 204 if you wanted to look it up "The passions may rage furiously, like true heathens as they are; and the desires may imagine all sorts of vain things: but judgment shall still have the last word in every argument, and the casting vote in every decision." Could I ask for a more direct quote from Jane? She identifies both passion and desire as "true heathens" but gives reason superiority in all matters which I saw as a glimmer of foreshadowing if she states to give reason full command in "every argument", even in matters of the heart.
Here, I believe Rochester is speaking, identifies Jane to be as she is due to her upbringing at Lowood and society. Jane's personal values are not credited with influence. Jane is categorized as one MADE to believe so, MADE to do so because that was what she was told was correct, the standard and was thus expected. She told herself not to love Rochester for he was not hers to love, yet passion and desire betrayed her and she was helpless, tieing it to my question. Her reconcile was nonexistant, a constant result for Jane, for Jane either the heathens win or duty prevails, with no shade of gray.
How do one's values influence the decisions an individual makes?
"Not at all, sir; I ask only this: don’t send for the jewels, and don’t crown me with roses: you might as well put a border of gold lace round that plain pocket handkerchief you have there."
Jane Eyre does not value material things. This leads her to not accept the gifts that Mr. Rochester wants to give her.
I like the quote he chose for his Question. I do not agree with him when he said that fighting back is portrayed as being a weakness. I think it was really just saying that we should fight back and that wasn't the norm back then. This shows how Jane acts out of norm.
I really liked Marcela's choice of quote. I felt it not only answered her question but answered the one about child abuse. I think overall it is a quote that does not directly answer the question, but allows the inference of opinion on the answer. I basically feel that it shows how suffering is bad but allows those who suffer to grow and develop and thus prepare for their futures. It allows them to gain knowledge and deal with the world. There is no real reason for suffering but without suffering there would be no compassion, and I think the quote takes a philosophical view on suffering.
I chose KK's post to respond to because I really like her guiding question and think it's a great discussion question. I agree with Keturah's analysis in that the quote certainly answers the question fully. And I also agree that even when Jane is going through so much externally, she still recognizes the effects it is having on her mentally. I think this is very interesting because she is so young at this point, yet mature enough to realize the true effect abuse is having on her.
1) How should people deal with injustice; accept it in silence or should they fight back?
" 'You dirty, disagreeable girl! You never cleaned your nails this morning.' Burns made no answer; I wondered at her silence. 'Why,' thought I, 'does she not explain that she could neither clean her nails nor wash her face, as the water was frozen?' "
Helen is a girl that tends to accept things, such as punishment, even though she does not deserve it. Here, this observation is consistent, she does not rebel against the injustice, nor does she say anything that would justify her cause. Jane obviously thinks that she should stand up and say that the water was frozen, which would possibly cause the injustice to be erased. However, she does not end up saying anything, she just lets the punishment occur. I agree with Jane in the fact that Helen should have said that the water was frozen, but she should not have done anything further than that as far as rebelling goes, because of the times. Lowood tended to be for poor people, and Helen probably wouldn't really have had much of anywhere to go (that I can remember) had she have been kicked out for poor behavior. Not only this, but Lowood was probably the only opportunity that she was given for education or being taken care of.
I agree with the quote and his opinion. One does tend to make decisions based upon their values, such as his example of 'what would Jesus do?' In this instance, Helen is saying that she will follow the path of jesus, meaning that her values are her religion and God. Based upon this, she will decide what is right or wrong in a situation.
I agree that with all pain and adversity the final outcome is not always bad and as Alex said, "Everything is ultimately a learning experience."
Many times one is forced to endure negative situations. Regardless of the the type of distress whether emotional or physical if one passes these tribulations, they will only be stronger and wiser in the end. I believe this directly correlates with janes character at this point in the novel. Even though she has endured such circumstances she has developed into a strong woman. She is comfortable in her skin and does not allow Rochester to transform her into someone she is not.
What effect does rejection and abuse have on a developing child?
ReplyDelete"Probably, if I had lately left a good home and kind parents, this would have been the hour when I should most keenly have regretted the separation: that wind would then have dampened my heart; this obscure chaos would have disturbed my peace: as it was, I derived from both a strange excitement, and reckless and feverish, I wished the wind to howl more wildly, the gloom to deepened to darkness, and the confusion to rise to clamor (pg. 54-55)"
I chose this quote because I believe it reveals a lot of insight into how children who face abuse frame the circumstances that surround them. While kids who come from a less violent background often face situations of comfort and happiness with ease, Jane has a hard time adapting to this setting because of its contrast with the conditions of her youth.
How does one reconcile duty with desire, passion with reason?
ReplyDelete"It is in vain to say human beings ought to be satisfied with tranquility: they must have action; and they will make it if they cannot find it. Millions are condemned to a stiller doom than mine and millions are in silent revolt against their lot." -(P. 111, speaker: Jane Eyre)
I chose this quote because I think it encompasses precisely what my question is asking for. Throughout this book we have seen many perspectives on how one deals with the sometimes opposite pulls of duty and desire. Jane Eyre, in particular, has one of the most dominant stances on this point (in my opinion). She does what her heart tells her too regardless of her "duty" and regardless of "reason". This quote expresses just that. She feels that people shouldn't just be satisfied with what they have, if they want more. And if they want more they should take action and go out and get it! Jane sees that there are so many out there who are worse off then she is, but all they do is sit there and complain, and do nothing about it ("silent revolt"). It seems as though Jane Eyre feels that if you desire something, or have an immense passion for something then don't let your duty or your reasoning get in the way of it. There are many excellent quotes in this book when it comes to how one reconciles duty with desire, passion with reason (quotes from Helen and Mr. Rochester, for example, who have different approaches on the matter), but this one is just one of the many that stood out to me. :)
What effect does rejection and abuse have on a developing child?
ReplyDelete"I felt physically weak and broken down: but my worst ailment was an unutterable wretchedness of mind: a wretchedness which kept drawing from me silent tears; no sooner had I wiped on salt drop from my cheek than another followed."
I chose this quote because it is the perfect description of what rejection and abuse can do to a child. It basically answers the question directly. Jane was going through so much at this point, yet the worst part to her that stood out the most was what it was doing to her mentally.
-Keturah-
What effect does rejection and abuse have on a developing child?
ReplyDelete"Ere long, I had reason to congratulate myself on the course of wholesome discipline to which I had thus forced my feelings to submit: thanks to it, I was able to meet subsequent occurences with a decent calm; which had they found me unprepared, I should probably have been unequal to maintain, even externally." (Page 164)
I feel as though this quote suggests that as a result of abuse and rejection one could then inherently submit themselves to a state of being reserved or better yet prevent themselves from being subjected to vulnerability. In the case of Jane, I have noticed that she avoids ever professing her true wants which may suggest she feels inferior or perhaps not entitled to express herself. Given her childhood abuse it is no wonder how she may fear others influence on her or how they may view her and as a result will adjust her appearance to suit one that is in control no matter how much her head may be spinning.
Is all adversity, pain, and suffering bad?
ReplyDelete"All of John Reed's violent tyrannies, all his sisters' proud indifference, all his mother's aversion, all the servants' partiality, turned up in my disturbed mind like a dark deposit in a turbid well. Why was I always suffering, always brow-beaten, always accused, forever condemned? Why could I never please? Why was it useless to try to win any one's favour?" (Page 14, Chapter 2)
I chose this quote because I felt it reflected Jane Eyre's questioning of why she was dubbed a bad child. Her actions never were sinful to the scale they were portrayed by the Reeds; however, being a child at the time, she believed so. At Gateshead, it was evident that she was a “discord”; further implying her internal solitude. This actually allowed Jane to express herself in other matters, such as art (painting of landscapes, particularly). Although she is now a quiet Governess as compared with her peer, Adele, and an obedient employee to Mr. Rochester at Thornfield, Jane was able to say at one point that “for my part, I liked it better” [p. 120-regarding life at Thornfield]. Therefore, her transitions from Gateshead to Lowood to Thornfield Hall display that suffering and change have been beneficial for Jane. She has improved her own life with the continuous movement from one place to another. Although she cannot truly commit to one place as “home” because of the trials and tribulations she has encountered, Jane’s experiences have allowed her to grow as a character and prepare her for future challenges.
Is all adversity, pain, and suffering bad?
ReplyDelete**I'm not sure if I've shared this quote before but it's my favorite:
"I knew he would soon strike, and while dreading the blow, I mused on the disgusting, and ugly appearance of him who would presently deal it."
This shows that suffering and adversity are intrinsic parts of life and are thus inextricably linked to happiness and joy. For example, although she knew that pain was coming, she found something that was enjoyable about her ordeal and focused on that. It is as if the inevitability of adversity allowed her to appreciate the good in life. This answers the question while using the theme of dualism by showing that life is life, the good comes with the bad and visa-versa. Thus, all pain, adversity, and suffering is not always bad because it is at the precipice that we can come to truly enjoy life.
Also reminds me of a bible verse "but joy cometh in the morning" or something like that lol
"How does one reconcile duty with desire, passion with reason?"
ReplyDeleteOne of my favorite qutoes thus far in relation to this question comes from page 154, after Jane saves Rochester's life. He has just released her hand and she retires to bed.
"I regained my couch, but never thought of sleep. Till morning dawned I was tossed on a buoyant but unquiet sea, where billows of trouble rolled under surges of joy. I thought sometimes I saw beyond its wild waters a shore, sweet as the hills of Beulah; and now and then a freshening gale, wakened my hope, bore my spirit, triumphantly towards the bourne: but I could not reach it, even in fancy,-- a counteracting breeze blew off land, and continually drov me back. Sense would resist delirium: judgement would warn passion."
This quote perfectly responds to the question. Jane is aware of her own feelings for Rochester, and while he elates her and fills her with joy, she is well aware that such a love cannot be expressed. Jane knows her place in the household: she is simply the master's daughter's governess, and telling Rochester the truth would only complicate things. Thus Jane would rather keep her feelings hidden.... for now, at least.
My question is, "Is all adversity, pain, and suffering bad?"
ReplyDeleteThe quote I'd like to share is from Mr Rochester:
"But I tell you---and you may mark my words---you will come some day to a craggy pass of the channel where the whole of life's stream will be broken up into whirl and tumult, foam and noise: either you will be dashed to atoms on crag points, or lifted up and borne on by some master wave into a calmer current---as I am now."
This isn't the most directly-related quote to my question, but it is my favorite one, and I do think it applies. Although the "whirl and tumult" Rochester describes sounds more like random chaos than pure suffering, I think it can stand for any big tribulation in your life.
In my life, the heaviest trials I have faced have been times of deep emotional suffering. When someone goes through an ordeal of great suffering, it has the potential to destroy them, as Rochester says: if we let the pain get in under our skin, it can drive us to psychosis or even to suicide, where we will literally be "dashed to atoms". If we can bear our burden and make it through the adversity, however, we instead emerge into a "calmer current," where daily hardships are much easier to deal with, in contrast to the great pain and suffering from before. This shows that all adversity, pain, and suffering is certainly not bad: once we experience the negative spectrum of emotion, it is easier to deal with minor negatives, and also to appreciate the simple pleasures many people take for granted.
Ultimately, everything is a learning experience; I chose to share this quote because I think it helps illustrate the important message that, if we treat our suffering like a learning experience rather than a destructive force, we will be able to be "lifted up and borne on by some master wave into a calmer current".
What effect does rejection and abuse have on a developing child?
ReplyDelete"Too often she betrayed this, by the undue vent she gave to a spiteful antipathy she conceveived against little Adele: pushing her away with some contumelious epithet if she happened to approach her; sometimes ordering her from the room, and always treating her with coldness and acrimony."
I choose this quote for it was the most recent passage that I have read that seemed as their was cruelity to Adele. This neglet that she recieves makes Adele strive for attention and that love from on of her elders. Which we see on Page 269 when Adele beggs a pleads to join Jane and Edward in the new carraige to Millcote, and spark conversation.
Opps.... Edward= Mr.Rochester
ReplyDelete=^_^=
My question is "What effect does rejection and abuse have on a developing child?"
ReplyDeleteIn response to my question my favorite quote is one said by Mr.Rochester to Jane when he shares with her a time of pain. Mr. Rochester says, "I see at intervals the glance of a curious sort of bird through the close-set bars of a cage: a vivid, restless, resolute captive is there; were it free, it would soar cloud high." This quote is relevant in terms of my question because it displays Jane as someone who has never been exposed to any form of freedom whether it'd be emotional,physical or mental; she has always been forced to endure neglect and abuse which consequently stifled her from developing into the individual that is capable of "soaring cloud-high". It depicts Jane precisely by implying that the abuse she has been forced to endure has caged her and prevented her from breaking free and revealing that she is capable of more than what she has been conditioned to believe. Not only does this quote seem to reveal Jane's current person as a whole but it also, in my opinion,foreshadows Jane's future freedom after she removes the shackles caused by the rejection and abuse from her family and finally reaches a state in which she developes self-esteem as well as self-respect.
Laura Correa
ReplyDeleteIs all adversity, pain, and suffering bad?
ReplyDelete"Teachers and pupils may look coldly at you for a day or two, but friendly feelings are concealed in their hearts; and if you perservere in doing well, these feelings will ere long appear so much more evidently for their temporary suppression."
This quote was chosen by me because I believe that it expresses the essence of pain, adversity, and suffering. We tend to try and avoid anything that may cause pain. However we don't that within pain and suffering there are good or "friendly" thingts concealed within them and if we just endure the bad the good will burst out of them and even more so because it was held back for that period of time. For example, after the typhus disease devasted the school, though it was bad and many died due to it, afterwards the conditions were changed and the school overall improved and was ran much more efficiently than prior. Also, jane even mentioned how the serving were of a greater portion also. It seems that everytime Jane mentions something bad happening somethins good or positive follows.
Can an immoral action be justified by a moral objective?
ReplyDelete"If people were always kind and obedient to those who are cruel and unjust, the wicked people would have it their own way; they would never be afraid, and so never alter, but grow worse and worse. When struck at without reason, we should strike again very hard."
I chose this quote because I felt it epitomized the conflicting matter of my question. Basically I feel it expresses the side of the question that does agree that an immoral action can have a moral objective. For as the quote said, if one does not strike back, and hard, then one will be trampled over by those who continually strike. It is a kind of a balance in the world that what is given must be taken. I also think that the quotes meaning touches on the motif balanced. It is like in our Socratic discussion the other day. This quote justifies doing so by stating the clear and necessary balance. For instance the physical appearance being blessed and having no soul or having a strong soul and being hideous. Basically, I felt it not only answered the question, but led to higher comprehension of the novel as a whole.
"How should people deal with injustice- accept in silence or fight back?"
ReplyDelete"How can she bear it so quietly- so firmly?" Pages 51-52
I chose this quote because it shows the two different philosophies. Helen is the subject of the of the quote and Jane is the speaker. Helen's philosophy of endurance is unknown to Jane. Jane obviously does not share the same outlook. This contrast between the two characters highlights the ideologies of each. This also makes a statement on how fighting back symbolizes weakness. Jane fights back because she doesn't have the endurance nor confidence of Helen, signifying Jane as a weaker individual. With this quote, it seems as if Bronte answers my question with the answer of silence.
--Travis Baten
How do one's values influence the decisions an individual makes?
ReplyDeletePg 58: "Read the New Testament, and observe what Christ sas, and how He acts;make His word your rule, and His conduct your example"
- Helen Burns
I chose this quote because it explicitly answers my question. One’s values have a great amount of influence on the decisions an individual makes. Helen Burns has a strong belief in God and believes in the divinity of Jesus’ actions. Therefore, she makes her decisions based on Christ’s actions. She will not take the route that contradicts her values. Helen can be characterized as the modern day person who constantly asks “what would Jesus do?” and makes her decisions based on the answer to that question. This characterization can be seen in the patience that Helen displays at Lowood and her ability to turn all bad criticism into positive ones.
#1: How should people deal with injustice - accept in silence or fight back?
ReplyDelete"When we are struck at without a reason, we should strike back again very hard"
First of all, I really like this quote! :) I think that it portrays a very strong minded and smart girl who, to answer the question, would choose fighting back when dealing with injustice. The quotes I copied down in the beginning of the book seemed more likely to answer with "accept in silence" but as the novel progresses, so does Jane. While she may not necessarily fight back, the above quote illustrates that she does believe we should fight back when dealing with injustice.
In response to Ilvens' post:
ReplyDeleteBronte answers this question in the book through Jane Eyre herself. Although she's not a fan of the hypocritical, elitist likes of Brocklehurst and Mrs. Reed, their teachings do effect/shape her values as proven by the contrast between the Jane before Lowood and the Jane afterwards. Before Lowood, Jane was often disrespectful, when punished, she adhered to her passions and lashed out against what she felt was unjust treatment, whether this retaliation included threatening to starve herself or yelling at Mrs. Reed. However, after Lowood, Jane seems to have developed a sense that going with her passions are not always the right thing to do. Thus her reluctance to not only talk freely to Mr. Rodchester when they first meet, but her initial inability to express her love for him as well as initial deference to Ms. Ingram (regarding Rodchester's attention, and when she claims that if it weren't for her motives and disposition, Ms. Ingram's social position would warrant admiration) prove that restraint and other social norms have become ingrained in her value system.
That being said, values play a large part in one's decisions. In fact they are often the determining factor, whether those values have to do with self-preservation/betterment, helping others, or some other idea priveldeged by societal rules. This is so because they form the basis of evaluation. For example, Jane is slow to openly express her feelings for Rodchester because her values not only tell her that it is wrong, but as the basis for decision, they tell her that she is not "worthy" especially in comparison to someone of such high esteem and beauty as Ms. Ingram. Thus her values lead her to initially make the decision to bury her feelings in an attempt at suffocating them so they no longer plague her thoughts.
In response to Travis and Sarah's posts-
ReplyDeleteWhen reading Jane Eyre we are exposed to different values, or viewpoints, from each character. Just like how Helen and Jane contrast in my question ("How does one reconcile duty for desire, passion for reason?"), they also contrast in their opinion on if one should fight back or keep silent when encountering injustice. Helen chooses to stay silent. When punished, she obliges. When talked down upon, she doesn't lash out. However, Jane always speaks her mind and does what she feels is right when injustice occurs. For example, when Mrs. Reed scorns her for fights with John that she did not start, Jane would stick up for herself and fight back. Therefore, although I feel that both Travis and Sarah made very good points in their posts, I feel as though there isn't one clear answer. Some characters in the book "accept in silence" , while others "fight back." I think this is exactly what Bronte is trying to express, these different outlooks and how they may change or evolve throughout the course of the novel.
In response to Rachel:
ReplyDeleteDues to Jane's lack of expressing herself throughout her life, it is hard to, except under extrenuating circumstances, such as with her cousin John in the beginning of the novel. Jane has always let her passion out weigh her reason. From when she hit John in retaliation, yelled at Ms. Reed for how she treated her to telling Helen how one ought to respond when being treated with injustice. Jane has been the one to fight back even if there was no reward in it. her retaliation to John brought severe consequences and yet not too long after she yells at Ms. Reed, with the expectations of having consequences. She let her passion override her reason.
Yet, I agree with Rachel's response that Jane puts aside her desire for her duty. Although I do believe that Jane could still be a governness for MR. Rochester and be his wife at the same time. It would be simply like having a wife that works, only she works for you.
---Travis S. Baten
In response to Travis' post and Melvin's response:
ReplyDeletePerfect quote Travis, because it also relates to my question and further buttresses Melvin’s response. The quote serves as a perfect example of an individual being forced to make a decision in a scenario; to accept in silence or fight back. At the end of the day, as Melvin said, it is one’s values that will serve as a determining factor.
Jane said those words at a time when she valued self-expression and that want for freedom. Being a victim of abuse and so many constraints, Jane developed utter resentment to the philosophy of “accepting in silence” instead of fighting back. However, at Lowood, Jane was able to involve herself with someone who exemplified the “accept in silence” philosophy and Jane slowly changed her values which affected her ways. Throughout her stay at Lowood, Jane slowly moved to the more peaceful side of the spectrum instead of fighting back.
As Melvin stated, the result of Jane’s transformation can be seen at Thornfield. Jane observes Miss Ingram intensely and is able to strip off the facetious airs that Miss Ingram puts on. Jane sees that Miss Ingram makes comments that lack substance and only has a reputation going for her. Yet, Jane always holds her composure and never calls Miss Ingram out when Miss Ingram makes silly and condescending comments about Jane and the servants. Instead of fighting back, Jane simply remains in her corner and accepts in silence. I am not a gambler, but I am more than willing to bet that the pre-Lowood Jane would lash out at Miss Ingram and expose Miss Ingram. However, the new Jane has a different set of values guiding her decisions.
My question is
ReplyDelete"How should people deal with injustice- accept in silence or fight back?"
I chose this quote, with Jane puzzled at Grace's Possible crime and Rochester's inaction -
“He had almost as much as declared his conviction of her criminality last night: what mysterious cause withheld him from accusing her? Why had he enjoined me, too, to secrecy? It was strange: a bold, vindictive, and haughty gentleman seemed somehow in the power of one of the meanest of his dependants; so much in her power, that even when she lifted her hand against his life, he dared not openly charge her with the attempt, much less punish her for it.” - Jane ch. 16
I chose this quote because it displays what kind of attitude Jane has regarding justice and injustice. As seen here, as soon as Jane realizes Rochester is not doing anything about the Grace Poole situation, she immediately jumps to the conclusion that Poole must have some sort of hold or grasp over him which prevents him from relating her crimes to others. This shows that Jane possibly believes(perhaps foolishly) that everyone has an intrinsic desire to do justice and if they do not, then they must have some sort of oppressive force preventing them from doing justice.
In response to Rachel's post-
ReplyDeleteI agree completely that Jane is being reserved because she "reasons" that she has a specific place in a household and that because of this she should not express her feelings. However, I find that her "reason" is something created by her own horrendous experience and troubled childhood. So, in regards to the question, one would be able to reconcile reason with passion, however Jane cannot because her judgement is already flawed, thus making it impossible to be reasonable and passionate at the same time.
In response to German's post:
ReplyDeleteI found the quote you shared quite interesting. It seems to me to be reflective of parts of the "Romantic" mindset. A few thoughts come to my head when contemplating this viewpoint of Jane's:
She says Rochester has "almost as much as declared his conviction of her criminality"; this, to me, sounds like an incredibly shaky, unsure conviction, foreshadowing the fact that Grace Poole is not exactly the "criminal" Jane believes her to be. I think it naive of Jane to be so adamant about Grace Poole's need for punishment, considering how little she actually knows about the crime or the accused. This in turn reminded me of a Romantic condemnation of modern (i.e. industrial) society; the real issue/crime is deeper than what is ostensibly true. (Problem exists in human nature, perhaps, not industrial society? Think Wordsworth's disillusionment at the failure of the French revolution.)
Jane also, as indicated by this quote, seems incredulous that someone with the power to deal justice would refrain from doing so, as you (German) noted. This communicates to me a very idealistic or naive view of the world, namely that "wrongs" need to be made "right" by justice. The truth is that this is simply not the natural order of things. No lightning bolt will strike you down if you do something "wrong". I see the idea of justice as a construct of the human mind, and although it can be a comforting concept, it seems quite naive to me to believe that "justice" is the natural consequence for convicted wrongdoers. It also implies, in a more indirect way, a kind of moral rigidity that does not take into account the subjective nature of right and wrong. This reminds me again of the Romantics, who, while espousing a return to nature, neglect to think of the hardships such as famine and intense weather that plagued the human race before technological progress. There is a kind of trade-off of advantages and disadvantages with each step towards "progress", and I always find it a bit narrow-minded when someone condems any idea (modern society, injustice, death, etc) as being absolutely or universally bad.
Jane's assumption that Rochester needs a "cause" to refrain from dealing justice accentuates this somewhat naive outlook; she can't imagine that someone might not be inclined to give just punishments. As I stated above, I don't think anything can be condemned as absolutely bad or negative; on the same note, I don't believe that anything (i.e. justice) can be considered absolutely GOOD or RIGHT, either. Exactly what "justice" means will differ from person to person, but I think the idea of punishing those who commit injustices is counterproductive. Punishment doesn't do anything except tell the perpetrator that they are "wrong"; it doesn't help them figure out the "right" way to go. Maybe this didn't seem apparent in the Victorian era, but I do think Jane's expectations for justice reveal something about her mindset: no matter how sobered or cautious she is, she is still at the base romantic, idealistic, and passionate, perhaps because of lack of personal experience, or perhaps as a compensation or consequence of her painful upbringing. Either way, to me, this attitude seems an imbalance that prevents Jane from being at peace with her world; she seems to live in either a romantic fantasy land or a miserable, dreary world, but never simply "reality" or "life". Just as Jane was always reading fairy tales as a child, looking for an escape, I believe she is still trying to "escape" even at Thornfield---escape into her romantic dreamworld, and thus miss the fantastic reality she is actually living in. Tying that back to the Romantics, I believe they, in a way, kept themselves from being contented with reality by idealizing a romantic world.
ReplyDeleteSo, Jane's mindset (at least relative to justice) seems to reflect the more romantic themes of the novel. Now maybe I'm just reading way too deeply into this, but that is all the stuff that quote stirred up in my brain. So there you have it.
In response to Tharadjyne's post.
ReplyDeleteI find the quote encompassing the question perfectly. To elaborate I think through that suffering and embarrassment Jane attempts to use that anguish as her drive to prove Mr.Brocklehurst wrong about her persona. So with that her suffering creates a positive effect rather than a negative which was his intentions.
In response to Jael’s post:
ReplyDeleteI feel that your quote is relevant to the question; I also agree with where you are coming from regarding Jane’s introversion. To expand, I feel as if she is versatile; Jane does adapt to her surroundings quite easily. However, it is clear to me that she does not forget her past, and therefore reflects them in other instances other than expressing her feelings. Jane’s landscapes are an example of this; they depict her deepest sentiments, whether at Gateshead, Lowood (when she truly started this art) and Thornfield. A tortured developed child will seek alternatives to express any emotion; the young are not devoid of this. I feel that it has helped her become strong in every aspect; she has bettered her own life by changing her environments.
While I agree with the statement that Jane loves and admires passion, I don’t think that she acts upon her urges or desires. After eight years the only act for her own happiness that Jane takes is attempting to find a job outside of Lowood, and even when she does she still continually desires for some change to the lifestyle she creates there (“I could not help it: the restlessness was in my nature; it agitated me to pain sometimes”). While she expresses emotion for Rochester, she doesn’t act on it until he sanctions it and not before then, and she accepts the inevitability of his marriage with Miss Ingram until he decides to change it. I think there is something to be said for a distinction between what Jane did and what she actually desired.
ReplyDeleteHow do one's values influence the decisions an individual makes?
ReplyDelete"But I feel this, Helen: I must dislike those who, whatever I do to please them, persist in disliking me; I must resist those who punish me unjustly. It is as natural as that I should love those who show me affection, or submit to punishment when I feel it is deserved."
I chose this quote because it shows why Jane is so deviant when it comes to Mrs Reed. She realizes that Mrs. Reed will dislike her no matter what, so she will continue to dislike her unless she becomes treated otherwise, which we see is not so. It also shows how Jane fell in love with Rochester. She does not find him attractive, yet she happens to fall in love with him simply on the basis that he treats her kindly.
I agree with German's idea that Jane believes that people have an opposing force that keeps them from speaking up for justice. But I also think that when one fights for justice and it can not be obtained, it has the same end effect as if they kept quiet, even though they are trying to be heard. For example, when John Reed abuses Jane, and she tries to speak up, Mrs. Reed does not believe that it is John's fault and assumes that it is Jane that is being deviant. Even though Jane is fighting to get John in trouble, it has the same end effect if she had not said anything.
ReplyDeleteMy question is:
ReplyDeleteHow does one reconcile duty with desire, passion with reason?
My (fav.) quote:
"I felt as the road shortened before me: so glad I stopped once to ask myself what joy meant: and to remind reason that it was not to my home i was going or to a permanent resting-place, or to a place where fond friends looked out for me and waited my arrival"
Page 247
I chose this quote because I believe it answers my question perfectly. Jane Eyre finally accustoms herself to a new life where she feels accepted, loved and belonged. But then once again her "reason" and thoughts come in play making her feel incompetent and unworthy of having a friendship or to be able to love. She does not allow herself to enjoy life and have the freedom to feel secured and acknowledged, and it portrays how she battles "duty" with "desire" and "passion" with "reason".
In response to Keturah's post:
I agree with that fact that her quote responds clearly to her question, but I would like to add something. I feel that KK's questions links to mine. Jane Eyre's "abuse" not just damaged her physical appearance but her inner-self also. And as a consequence she lost all the hope that she had left. That's why she believes she does not deserve anything good int his world but suffering.
(This might be pretty obvious but I just wanted to point it out)
In response to Ilvens,
ReplyDeleteI absolutely love that you used Helen as an example for your question because in my opinion, she is the prime example of how values influence choices. Helen's religious values keep her from choosing to express a lot of her emotions in scenes like when she is getting whipped. Although every character takes some action at some point in the book that can answer this question, I feel that Helen's choices based on her beliefs are constant throughout her time in the novel; her values are so influential to the extent that she even quotes them as you have shown in the quote that you chose. I definately agree with you that our values do have an influence over our actions, and that Helen's life can be seen as based on the question "what would jesus do?"
In response to Nicole Agro:
ReplyDeleteI understand where you're coming from. But I have to disagree.(Sorry!)well...to an extent. lol. I don't think Jane necessarily disregards her duty for passion when there is a pull between the two. If this were the case then how do you explain her suppressing her feelings toward Mr. Rochester especially when she loved him so zealously. During her time at Thornfield she continuously used reason (the fact that she was poor, a simple governess, and "plain")to talk herself out of expressing her feeling outwardly. I think it more that Jane stops herself from igniting passion and exploring the inner depths of her desires because she believes that it is her duty to be miss "plain Jane," and uses reason that she couldn't be be any other way but herself. Or that she makes it her passion (or maybe it is her desire to)remain dutiful and reasonable in being "plain chain" all circumstances even if it means reconciling things dearest to her, even her love for Rochester.
So I'm behind in getting started on this assignment so here goes my quote to question #4 HOW DOES ONE RECONCILE DUTY WITH DESIRE, PASSION WITH REASON? found on page 204 if you wanted to look it up "The passions may rage furiously, like true heathens as they are; and the desires may imagine all sorts of vain things: but judgment shall still have the last word in every argument, and the casting vote in every decision." Could I ask for a more direct quote from Jane? She identifies both passion and desire as "true heathens" but gives reason superiority in all matters which I saw as a glimmer of foreshadowing if she states to give reason full command in "every argument", even in matters of the heart.
ReplyDeleteHere, I believe Rochester is speaking, identifies Jane to be as she is due to her upbringing at Lowood and society. Jane's personal values are not credited with influence. Jane is categorized as one MADE to believe so, MADE to do so because that was what she was told was correct, the standard and was thus expected. She told herself not to love Rochester for he was not hers to love, yet passion and desire betrayed her and she was helpless, tieing it to my question. Her reconcile was nonexistant, a constant result for Jane, for Jane either the heathens win or duty prevails, with no shade of gray.
ReplyDeleteHow do one's values influence the decisions an individual makes?
ReplyDelete"Not at all, sir; I ask only this: don’t send for the jewels, and don’t
crown me with roses: you might as well put a border of gold lace round
that plain pocket handkerchief you have there."
Jane Eyre does not value material things. This leads her to not accept the gifts that Mr. Rochester wants to give her.
Franska
Response to Travis
ReplyDeleteI like the quote he chose for his Question. I do not agree with him when he said that fighting back is portrayed as being a weakness. I think it was really just saying that we should fight back and that wasn't the norm back then. This shows how Jane acts out of norm.
I really liked Marcela's choice of quote. I felt it not only answered her question but answered the one about child abuse. I think overall it is a quote that does not directly answer the question, but allows the inference of opinion on the answer. I basically feel that it shows how suffering is bad but allows those who suffer to grow and develop and thus prepare for their futures. It allows them to gain knowledge and deal with the world. There is no real reason for suffering but without suffering there would be no compassion, and I think the quote takes a philosophical view on suffering.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Keturah :)
ReplyDeleteI chose KK's post to respond to because I really like her guiding question and think it's a great discussion question. I agree with Keturah's analysis in that the quote certainly answers the question fully. And I also agree that even when Jane is going through so much externally, she still recognizes the effects it is having on her mentally. I think this is very interesting because she is so young at this point, yet mature enough to realize the true effect abuse is having on her.
1) How should people deal with injustice; accept it in silence or should they fight back?
ReplyDelete" 'You dirty, disagreeable girl! You never cleaned your nails this morning.'
Burns made no answer; I wondered at her silence.
'Why,' thought I, 'does she not explain that she could neither clean her nails nor wash her face, as the water was frozen?' "
Helen is a girl that tends to accept things, such as punishment, even though she does not deserve it. Here, this observation is consistent, she does not rebel against the injustice, nor does she say anything that would justify her cause. Jane obviously thinks that she should stand up and say that the water was frozen, which would possibly cause the injustice to be erased. However, she does not end up saying anything, she just lets the punishment occur. I agree with Jane in the fact that Helen should have said that the water was frozen, but she should not have done anything further than that as far as rebelling goes, because of the times. Lowood tended to be for poor people, and Helen probably wouldn't really have had much of anywhere to go (that I can remember) had she have been kicked out for poor behavior. Not only this, but Lowood was probably the only opportunity that she was given for education or being taken care of.
in response to Ilvens' post,
ReplyDeleteI agree with the quote and his opinion. One does tend to make decisions based upon their values, such as his example of 'what would Jesus do?' In this instance, Helen is saying that she will follow the path of jesus, meaning that her values are her religion and God. Based upon this, she will decide what is right or wrong in a situation.
I too agree with Shannon and Ilvens. A person's beliefs do strongly influence their choices and the decisions they make.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Alex's question:
ReplyDeleteI agree that with all pain and adversity the final outcome is not always bad and as Alex said, "Everything is ultimately a learning experience."
Many times one is forced to endure negative situations. Regardless of the the type of distress whether emotional or physical if one passes these tribulations, they will only be stronger and wiser in the end. I believe this directly correlates with janes character at this point in the novel. Even though she has endured such circumstances she has developed into a strong woman. She is comfortable in her skin and does not allow Rochester to transform her into someone she is not.
Laura Correa