If we had Billy's time elasticity we could have talked for longer. Pesky linear chronology!
:-)
Please read to at least the end of chapter 6, adding to your dialectical notes. In addition, please answer the following and keep with your notes (I will collect and grade ALL your dialectical notes at the end of the book):
1. What is the narrator's attitude toward Billy Pilgrim?
2. Who is "trapped" in this book? By what? (hint--not only characters...)
By all means "discuss" this with your classmates. That's what the blog is for.
Have this finished by Friday 9/4
trapped?
ReplyDelete^doesn't Vonnegut say in Chapter 4 about bugs being trapped in amber and compares it to Time? I think that's what shes referring to, if its something else, then I'm really not sure.
ReplyDeleteHe is Vonnegut's Dorian Gray; he loves this character but he is not afraid of giving him a great plight. But yet he cherishes Pilgram as his own.
ReplyDeleteBilly's memories being traped in random circulation constantly over and over again.
c.von.romer
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ReplyDeleteTo me the narrator seems to have a callously contemptuous attitude toward Billy. Although he objectively tells Billy's story, he does it in a way that makes Billy seem rather simple. It is narrated as if Billy is so ignorant (or possibly insightful?) that he smiles in the face of his own demise (i.e. the prison camp), unknowingly supports radical ideas (i.e. the John Birch sticker), and stumbles his way through a treacherous war zone. Although this could be said to reflect Billy's insight into the inevitability of life's happenings, the narrators way of describing this "wisdom" makes Billy seem like a mere simpleton.
ReplyDelete...But that's just me
p^_^p Headphones.
I think it is Vonnegut himself that is trapped in the book... Did anyone else notice that when Billy picked up the Princess phone, he could "almost smell the mustard gas and roses"? Remind you of anything from chapter 1? Kurt often places himself in his own books, especially if anyone has read Breakfast of Champions. I have a feeling that Vonnegut is tied to a lot of the memories and experiences Billy has, in a kind of symbolic way, linking back to the author's own war trauma or something similar. But, that is just an idea, and it needs more support, so maybe by tomorrow there will be a little expansion on that thought.
ReplyDeleteI don't think Vonnegut's attitude towards Billy is necessarily contemptuous, although I'm not sure how I myself would describe it. Maybe after a quick flip through the chapters we've covered, I will have something more to contribute here...
Did you all forget about poor Montana Wildhack...?
ReplyDeleteConsider: perhaps Vonnegut himself and Billy are conflated...a kind of being "trapped"...?
ReplyDeleteHaha! Is Montana Wildhack still up there? Poor woman! ^_^
ReplyDeleteI like Marcella's comment about the flies trapped in amber and the connection to all of us being trapped by the fates and the inevitability of the events that make up our lives.
I also agree with the idea that Billy and Vonnegut are conflated or fused together in a way.
I really need to start replying to these things sooner so I'm not always just agreeing with everyone.
>>~~Katie~>
"perhaps" was the operative word. Vonnegut and Billy are not necessarily "one" but as Vonnegut did experience Dresden much the same way as he has Billy experience it, we need to ask not if, but to what extent, do you think Billy is Vonnegut?
ReplyDeleteMs. Hurst:
ReplyDeleteFor the timeline, were we supposed to email any parts of it? There seems to be some confusion among my group.
No, just bring everything to class tomorrow.
ReplyDeleteCould Billy be like an alter ego of Vonnegut? In a way Billy, with his particular relationship with time, has acheived something that Vonnegut wishes he could acheive,to not mourn deaths, to be removed from the haunting memories, and reality as a whole...
ReplyDeleteI think that Billy to an extent illustrates Vonnegut's feelings about the past, rather than his actual experiences. So I think Billy, while being a separate character, is a facet of Vonnegut's emotions or memories. But, also take note that there are a few instances where the author literally identifies another character as himself.
ReplyDeleteTo put it simply, Billy's literal experiences could be a kind of metaphor for Vonnegut's feelings about his own past experiences.
I agree with Diana. I thought that Billy was sort of like Vonnegut alter ego. Through Billy Vonnegut tries to show things he wanted for himself like time travel and wanting to say, "so it goes" to things Vonnegut most likely couldn't say to because he human.
ReplyDeleteFranska
Isn't Billy also human?
ReplyDeleteIsn't Vonnegut the one writing "So it goes" throughout the whole book?
Does Billy's time travelling make him happy or more comfortable?
In many instances, I noticed that Billy was quite miserable in the "future", and don't forget the orange and black stripes connecting the prison-bound train with his daughter's wedding, or the scenes from his days in the optometry office.
Also, I don't think Billy can control his time travelling... So is it necessarily even a positive attribute at all, or is it something that just... is?
Oh, by the way, an interesting point to consider:
ReplyDeleteVonnegut only writes that Billy "says" he did this or that, rather than simply writing that he did it. Is it possible that Vonnegut himself questions the veracity of Billy's stories?
"something that just is" words from a Tralfamadorian.
ReplyDeleteResponding to "Sven":
ReplyDeleteI think not. Vonnegut doesn't seem to do this often enough to indicate that Billy's stories are suspect. In fact, to me it seems to be just the opposite. For a large portion of the book (well up to chapter 6) Vonnegut narrates as if he were omnipresent. Statements such as "Billy saw the war movies backwards then forwards" (pg. 75) and "Billy traveled back in time..." (pg. 107) make it sound like Vonnegut is telling a story rather than simply repeating Billy's as the aforementioned thought is premised on.
I agree with you Melvin, but I believe that the possibility that Billy's experiences are delusions is very important to the meaning of the story... I do not know if anyone read my uber-long post on one of the first blogs, but I have since understood that my initial thoughts (explained in that post) are only one piece of the puzzle.
ReplyDeleteThe Tralfamadorians claim that everything just "is" and that everyone is powerless to change anything. However, in Billy's optometry office, his plaque asks, "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I can't change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to tell the difference." His patients say that this thought helps them to keep going, but in the Tralfamadorians' view, there is nothing which can be changed.
So what do you think the humans are able to change, if not fate or reality?
^^I think humans can change immediate things, but not the big picture. Less abstractly, fate remains unchanged, and is not subject to free will whereas the different avenues toward the inevitable outcomes are controllable. For example, Billy knew he would be abducted by the Tralfamadorians in Chapter 4 (?) because it had happened before, it was fate and it was unchangeable. However, he planned for the abduction, relaxed, watched some movies, drank a little, and then went outside to be abducted. It is probably safe to assume that the first time he was abducted, it didn't go down this way. He was likely more surprised, fearful, and confused. However, using the knowledge he had accrued through his travels through time, he planned for the encounter. I think this instance proves that although humans cannot change their ultimate fate, they can change the way they get to/experience it.
ReplyDelete....Of course, Vonnegut may not have intended this at all, but hey,competing interpretations are part of what make these authors rich anyway. :)
Well, I think your interpretation may be in error, because the Tralfamadorians claim that each moment is structured in a specific way that cannot be changed. I know the scene of the abduction is described in a way that makes it seem like Billy's actions were voluntary, but I think it was written in that style to accentuate that it was his fate and not a choice; he walked outside because it was "time for him to be abducted" not because he knew it was time, but because he was compelled by fate to do such. I think the alcohol and the movie were just a product of insomnia...
ReplyDeleteIs anyone kind enough to explain the poem to me? pleeeease! :)
ReplyDeleteRe: the poem
ReplyDeleteHints: Think British poet being satirical about the people,society, and poetry...the poet is Alexander Pope if that helps. Known for rhyming couplets.
What does "wear the bays" mean?
ReplyDelete